Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

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Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by BushidoBlitz on Mon 17 Aug 2009, 13:27

Greg,

Thought I'd get my "preliminary" two cents in on which game to play in next year's "Masters Invitational?" If I understood you correctly, you intend to start from scratch next year, with no Masters (since Revised is dead), but holding a qualifying Mega with either AA42 or AA50. You requested our feedback on which one to use.

My feedback is preliminary, of course, because I haven't played a game of AA42 yet, but based on what you and others tell me, the board and starting piece placement is nearly identical to Revised, but the rules (particularly with regard to subs) are similar to AA50.

To me, the answer is that AA50 should be the format.

Many reasons: bigger board, more spaces, more pieces, Italy as sixth power (for those who appreciate more historical accuracy), Chinese forces--in short, IMHO AA50's scale aligns better with the epic aspect of the Masters and its corresponding Mega qualifiers.

I under your concern about potential drawbacks: AA50 is not played as often as Revised (now AA42), and 6-hour rounds for a 4-day convention is much more logistically limiting than 4-hour rounds.

The 4 rounds of qualifiers with a cut to the top 8 worked OK, but the tie-breakers (# VC's first, then IPC total) are tough to work out when someone concedes early. If I recall, the top 8 had 17 VC, 15 VC, 13 VC (five teams), and only one team with 10 VC made it. That leads to situations where people advance because they played a weaker opponent, not because they won more games. I'd prefer the round robin to single elim format.

Here's an idea for next year's Mega tourney format. I understand the desire not to start the Mega on Thursday in order to boost turnout, since not everyone has another vacation day to spare.

If that's the case, then the time will depend on your expected tournout. With 32 teams (I never got to see this, but it sounds awesome), you'll have to go to 5-hour rounds, 3 on Friday, 3 on Saturday. 8 brackets of 4, three rounds of round robin in each bracket, all on Friday (8-1, 1-6, 6-11), top 2 from each bracket advance to single elimination on Saturday. Round of 16 at 8AM Saturday, quarters at 1PM, semis at 6PM, finals on Sunday as usual.
I realize I'm casually throwing out there that you're running tourneys Fri-Sat from 8-midnight (because there's always extra time).

If you expect only 16 teams, you could keep the 6-hour time limit. 4 brackets of 4 teams play round robin, 2 games on Friday, 1 Saturday morning, top team from each bracket advances to semis Sat. night, finals on Sunday.

Anyway, just a thought. AA50 is logistically challenging, but doable.

BB

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by KurtGodel7 on Mon 17 Aug 2009, 16:08

BushidoBlitz wrote:
The 4 rounds of qualifiers with a cut to the top 8 worked OK, but the tie-breakers (# VC's first, then IPC total) are tough to work out when someone concedes early. If I recall, the top 8 had 17 VC, 15 VC, 13 VC (five teams), and only one team with 10 VC made it. That leads to situations where people advance because they played a weaker opponent, not because they won more games. I'd prefer the round robin to single elim format.

Here's an idea for next year's Mega tourney format. I understand the desire not to start the Mega on Thursday in order to boost turnout, since not everyone has another vacation day to spare.

If that's the case, then the time will depend on your expected tournout. With 32 teams (I never got to see this, but it sounds awesome), you'll have to go to 5-hour rounds, 3 on Friday, 3 on Saturday. 8 brackets of 4, three rounds of round robin in each bracket, all on Friday (8-1, 1-6, 6-11), top 2 from each bracket advance to single elimination on Saturday. Round of 16 at 8AM Saturday, quarters at 1PM, semis at 6PM, finals on Sunday as usual.
I realize I'm casually throwing out there that you're running tourneys Fri-Sat from 8-midnight (because there's always extra time).

If you expect only 16 teams, you could keep the 6-hour time limit. 4 brackets of 4 teams play round robin, 2 games on Friday, 1 Saturday morning, top team from each bracket advances to semis Sat. night, finals on Sunday.

Anyway, just a thought. AA50 is logistically challenging, but doable.
BB
I agree with your suggestion about the round robin format. Let's say a team goes 3-0, and another goes 1-2. But the latter team's win is bigger (from a victory city perspective) than any of the former team's wins. Does it really make sense to let the 1-2 team advance on the basis of its one big win, while the 3-0 team is eliminated because each of its wins were too small?

It would make more sense to base qualification on record first, with tiebreakers similar to the ones currently used in the Masters tournament.

One thing I like about both the format used in this year's GenCon and the round robin format you've proposed is that each avoids a "one and done" experience for any tournament participants. If even the weakest players get to play three times before getting eliminated, they'll have a much better experience!

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by squirecam on Mon 17 Aug 2009, 19:32

After playing at Gencon this year, and seeing all of the games, and hearing of all the new games, I have a "radical" idea...

No mega.

You already said you are gearing for no Masters. Why not solve the problem by having no Mega?

So many new games are coming out (42, 40P and 40E) that really people are unsure what will be the most played game. Obviously it now seems that Anniversary is that game, but what about the E&P "global" game?

I have *loved* playing at Gencon. But so many games, and so little time, has made this time-obsessive, to the extent that many people play in 2 events at the same time (me included).

But I think I have a solution.

The "qualifier" events worked well. With a minor tweak, I think that we can run all events in this manner, see which games get the most attention, and base a decision on the masters games for the future.

For example, you have 8 teams for each game that will move on to saturday elimination. Anniversary would only allow for 2 daily qualifiers, but aa42 might allow for three. The top 8 teams still advance.

This allows players to show up at 9 or 10, play for the game they want to qualify for, and we get a better sense of what is popular...

The forced 3 rounds of swiss is fine if you have 1 game, but A&A has several versions. Let the players determine what game is popular, and what is not.

You can still play your *favorite* game 4 times to qualify for saturday, if you are that compulsive about it. Or perhaps you see that 42 doesnt have high scores, and you think you can qualify for that, so you switch.

It avoids the true "single elim" issue, but is not as strenuous as the forced swiss system has been.

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by EricM on Tue 18 Aug 2009, 21:37

I like that idea by Charles. Use the qualifier events as a prelude to a final 8 on Saturday. But, I know Wizards will have their 2 cents on what the big tournament should be, so this may or may not be feasible..

Personally, I like AA50 a lot better than the others. But, I couldn't skip an invite tournament like the masters.

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by questioneer on Tue 18 Aug 2009, 22:05

squirecam wrote:After playing at Gencon this year, and seeing all of the games, and hearing of all the new games, I have a "radical" idea...

No mega.

You already said you are gearing for no Masters. Why not solve the problem by having no Mega?

So many new games are coming out (42, 40P and 40E) that really people are unsure what will be the most played game. Obviously it now seems that Anniversary is that game, but what about the E&P "global" game?

I have *loved* playing at Gencon. But so many games, and so little time, has made this time-obsessive, to the extent that many people play in 2 events at the same time (me included).

But I think I have a solution.

The "qualifier" events worked well. With a minor tweak, I think that we can run all events in this manner, see which games get the most attention, and base a decision on the masters games for the future.

For example, you have 8 teams for each game that will move on to saturday elimination. Anniversary would only allow for 2 daily qualifiers, but aa42 might allow for three. The top 8 teams still advance.

This allows players to show up at 9 or 10, play for the game they want to qualify for, and we get a better sense of what is popular...

The forced 3 rounds of swiss is fine if you have 1 game, but A&A has several versions. Let the players determine what game is popular, and what is not.

You can still play your *favorite* game 4 times to qualify for saturday, if you are that compulsive about it. Or perhaps you see that 42 doesnt have high scores, and you think you can qualify for that, so you switch.

It avoids the true "single elim" issue, but is not as strenuous as the forced swiss system has been.

Excellecnt points Squirecam!!! cheers I think that is exactly the route we should go with this.

I finally have the AA42 game and it isn't as bad as I made it out to be. For 28 bucks you actually get better quality than Revised. It plays pretty decent also as Ben and I played it out- only 1 game under the belt though. I wouldn't be suprised to see this in the Mega again but...

AA50 is definitely in the lead for a push to the "Mega/Masters" but after reading all the info on Larry's site on AAE40 and AAP40 and seeing the pictures for the AAP40 map (WOW!), the "global" AAE40/AAP40 game may actually outshine AA50- never would have figured that!!!

I really like what Squirecam said about keeping the qualifier "days" for AA50 and for the other new games as well- top 8 go to the playoffs on Sat/Sun. Its simple, allows for flexiblity for gamers to switch and its a little better than Swiss. No need for any MASTERS!

One can have the opprotunity to play AA50 4-times, AA42 4-times, and AAP40/AAE40 games 4-times (or the global game 4 times). Only the best teams advance- basically you would have to have 3 or 4 wins to advance. (Record of 3-1 or 4-0) This is how the Catan tournaments are conducted. You basically go in on Thursday, Friday or Saturday morning and try to win 3 or 4 games, if you do- you go to the Semi-Finals on Saturday night with finals on Sunday- VERY SIMPLE. You can play as many games as the slots allow you to sign up for to get those wins- easy.
Very Happy
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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by SwampHQ on Tue 18 Aug 2009, 22:12

squirecam wrote:After playing at Gencon this year, and seeing all of the games, and hearing of all the new games, I have a "radical" idea...

No mega.

Squirecam,

I agree...that, IMO, this has already been done. The
"Mega" tournament was coined that based on the original AA tournament
(2nd Ed) that started back in the early 90's where there were literally, on
average, 110-120 players. Any where from 55-60 teams vying in a SE two-day
tourney. Since, and mostly since we have moved to Indy and due to the
overabundance of AA games, the numbers have declined. The named stayed the same
because, technically, it was the same tourney but not really in a
"Mega" capacity.

So, IMM, I see the Mega has ran its course and time for a new name and tourney.


Now, as for the Masters, and EricM can back me on this, because he was the one
I originally posed the idea to about a Masters 9 years ago. Yes, this was the
9th year for the Masters...but anyhow, it came about because when the Mega was
in full swing, it seemed as if the same six or so teams were always making it
to the quarterfinals and beyond. So, after some brainstorming with EricM and
others, we (I) decided to go ahead and break out the top eight. The first year,
we just took the top eight from the Mega tourney. Then the next year, the top
three moved on from the Mega and about a year or so later, made Origins the
qualifier for the eighth spot.

Hence the Masters was born...

So, again, based on the reasoning behind why we did what we did at GEN CON, it
would only make sense to rebuild the foundation of the tournament on one game
but not until we can fully establish which game it becomes. And IMO, if the
Mega goes away, fine.

Next year, and at this time, I believe we will have three tournaments for AA:
AA50 (format just as we did this year), AA 42 (we need to play-test this and
come up with tournament victory conditions), and AAPacific40. Europe is suppose
to be out around May, but with the scheduling normal a bit behind at the bid
house in the SW, I am guess it will be out just in time for Origins...even
though WotC most likely will not be present again...

At this time, these are my thoughts...

Peace, Idea

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by SwampHQ on Tue 18 Aug 2009, 22:20

I finally have the AA42 game and it isn't as bad as I made it out to
be. For 28 bucks you actually get better quality than Revised. It plays
pretty decent also as Ben and I played it out- only 1 game under the
belt though. I wouldn't be suprised to see this in the Mega again
but...

Dido...EricM and I played James Nelson and Carl VG at GEN CON. I really like it...I love the look and the feel of the game. Yes, there are a few little things they probably should have done away with such as the IPC chart at the bottom of the board but, we must understand what and to whom WotC is targeting this game...I am sure IL will have no comphrehesion of this statement...

Peace, Evil or Very Mad

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A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton
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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by squirecam on Wed 19 Aug 2009, 14:06

SwampHQ wrote:
squirecam wrote:After playing at Gencon this year, and seeing all of the games, and hearing of all the new games, I have a "radical" idea...

No mega.

Squirecam,

I agree...that, IMO, this has already been done. The
"Mega" tournament was coined that based on the original AA tournament
(2nd Ed) that started back in the early 90's where there were literally, on
average, 110-120 players. Any where from 55-60 teams vying in a SE two-day
tourney. Since, and mostly since we have moved to Indy and due to the
overabundance of AA games, the numbers have declined. The named stayed the same
because, technically, it was the same tourney but not really in a
"Mega" capacity.

So, IMM, I see the Mega has ran its course and time for a new name and tourney.


Now, as for the Masters, and EricM can back me on this, because he was the one
I originally posed the idea to about a Masters 9 years ago. Yes, this was the
9th year for the Masters...but anyhow, it came about because when the Mega was
in full swing, it seemed as if the same six or so teams were always making it
to the quarterfinals and beyond. So, after some brainstorming with EricM and
others, we (I) decided to go ahead and break out the top eight. The first year,
we just took the top eight from the Mega tourney. Then the next year, the top
three moved on from the Mega and about a year or so later, made Origins the
qualifier for the eighth spot.

Hence the Masters was born...

So, again, based on the reasoning behind why we did what we did at GEN CON, it
would only make sense to rebuild the foundation of the tournament on one game
but not until we can fully establish which game it becomes. And IMO, if the
Mega goes away, fine.

Next year, and at this time, I believe we will have three tournaments for AA:
AA50 (format just as we did this year), AA 42 (we need to play-test this and
come up with tournament victory conditions), and AAPacific40. Europe is suppose
to be out around May, but with the scheduling normal a bit behind at the bid
house in the SW, I am guess it will be out just in time for Origins...even
though WotC most likely will not be present again...

At this time, these are my thoughts...

Peace, Idea

AA42 is similar enough that you can import the revised VC conditions to start with. Its 181-170 and the axis needs 6 IPC to win.

This only works, however, if no one messes with the setup. It would be EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to get a balance on the game if one were to start adding units. For example, I know there is a new USSR battleship sculpt, but putting one in the game would really skew the balance in the allies favor. I would not want to see 20 IPC bids like classic.

As for a "mega" and masters, yes, I know why you did what you did. But now there are too many games and no longer 110 players...

Just have a trophy for each game AA50, AAP40 and AA42. No mega (along with your decision on no masters).

If one game is "super-popular", then we know what to make the next mega/masters.

I have a feeling, though, that people will want to play the global variant. And I dont see how that will work in 6 hour time slots !!

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by questioneer on Wed 19 Aug 2009, 21:18

squirecam wrote:

Just have a trophy for each game AA50, AAP40 and AA42. No mega (along with your decision on no masters).

If one game is "super-popular", then we know what to make the next mega/masters.

I have a feeling, though, that people will want to play the global variant. And I dont see how that will work in 6 hour time slots !!

The more I read about this "global game", the more I tend to believe that this will outshine AA50. I wonder if when the "global game" is out if AA50 will be an afterthought.
Don't believe???- check out the info given by Larry on this game already (condensed by ImpLeader)- all updated info on the 1st two posts:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=15031.0

Time to bust out the 7-hour time slots (could squeeze in 2 games per day like AA50) for the global game along with 3-4 man teams! (gonna need the extra teammate now)- That would be awesome!!! Very Happy Let's do it up!!!
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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by EricM on Wed 19 Aug 2009, 22:22

SwampHQ wrote:
squirecam wrote:After playing at Gencon this year, and seeing all of the games, and hearing of all the new games, I have a "radical" idea...

No mega.

Squirecam,

I agree...that, IMO, this has already been done. The
"Mega" tournament was coined that based on the original AA tournament
(2nd Ed) that started back in the early 90's where there were literally, on
average, 110-120 players. Any where from 55-60 teams vying in a SE two-day
tourney. Since, and mostly since we have moved to Indy and due to the
overabundance of AA games, the numbers have declined. The named stayed the same
because, technically, it was the same tourney but not really in a
"Mega" capacity.

So, IMM, I see the Mega has ran its course and time for a new name and tourney.


Now, as for the Masters, and EricM can back me on this, because he was the one
I originally posed the idea to about a Masters 9 years ago. Yes, this was the
9th year for the Masters...but anyhow, it came about because when the Mega was
in full swing, it seemed as if the same six or so teams were always making it
to the quarterfinals and beyond. So, after some brainstorming with EricM and
others, we (I) decided to go ahead and break out the top eight. The first year,
we just took the top eight from the Mega tourney. Then the next year, the top
three moved on from the Mega and about a year or so later, made Origins the
qualifier for the eighth spot.

Hence the Masters was born...

So, again, based on the reasoning behind why we did what we did at GEN CON, it
would only make sense to rebuild the foundation of the tournament on one game
but not until we can fully establish which game it becomes. And IMO, if the
Mega goes away, fine.

Next year, and at this time, I believe we will have three tournaments for AA:
AA50 (format just as we did this year), AA 42 (we need to play-test this and
come up with tournament victory conditions), and AAPacific40. Europe is suppose
to be out around May, but with the scheduling normal a bit behind at the bid
house in the SW, I am guess it will be out just in time for Origins...even
though WotC most likely will not be present again...

At this time, these are my thoughts...

Peace, Idea

Wow, yeah, 9 years already! If I remember correctly, there was a game where a team came in and rolled all their German IPC's on tech the first turn, didn't get a 6, and said "we surrender". UK never got to buy a unit and then you had to sit around for 4 hours for your next opponent. That 4 hour period is when the masters talk started.

It was just a tournament so the regular players could skip having to mess with the true beginners or the crazies. In 2009, even though the attendance has been lower, the overall quality of players is much better across the board. And I think the masters has outlived its purpose. You generally don't find yourself playing against people who need a refresher on how transports move units.

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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by questioneer on Thu 20 Aug 2009, 18:12

questioneer wrote:

The more I read about this "global game", the more I tend to believe that this will outshine AA50. I wonder if when the "global game" is out if AA50 will be an afterthought.
Don't believe???- check out the info given by Larry on this game already (condensed by ImpLeader)- all updated info on the 1st two posts:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=15031.0

Time to bust out the 7-hour time slots (could squeeze in 2 games per day like AA50) for the global game along with 3-4 man teams! (gonna need the extra teammate now)- That would be awesome!!! Very Happy Let's do it up!!!

For the global game you may need 3 person teams- which would be cool. 1 person is playing the Europe side, 1 the Pacific side and the other is a floater helping out. Or 4 person teams set up like this:

AAP40
Japan-2 person team
US/China
UK(India)/ANZAC/USSR/France/Netherlands

AAE40
Germany
Italy
US/USSR
UK/France/Netherlands/ANZAC

I think three person teams with a floater would work best! Very Happy
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Re: Which AA variant for 2010 GenCon Mega?

Post by Guest on Thu 22 Jul 2010, 09:32

For the global game you may need 3 person teams- which would be cool. 1 person is playing the Europe side, 1 the Pacific side and the other is a floater helping out. Or 4 person teams set up like this:

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