Origins 2010 Results!

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Origins 2010 Results!

Post by SwampHQ on Sun 27 Jun 2010, 18:21

AA Advocates,

Just back from Origins and will be updating the Swamp very soon. Just wanted to bring everyone up to speed on what happened.

And

unfortunately not much. Origins was, IMO a wash. Not many attendees overall and the AA tournaments suffered because of it...or at least that is what I hope the reason is.

I also got word for someone that the way in which things I run the AA events at Origins and GEN CON keeps players away. Hence one of the other reasons. I believe the comment was, "you try and please everyone and from what I have been told by others, they don't like that, hence the reason they don't come anymore." So, he ended with maybe if you just piss off the chosen few, more will return to what was once a thriving AA event for all...

Good point. and something I really need to consider. Feedback is welcome. And I have pretty tough skin...so fire away...

So, in short. Results are forthcoming from Origins with pics of the games played. Mini's was a step up from last year. Pacific was basically a flop. We only had 5 or six players, we had only 6 teams for the 1942 tourney and about the same for the AA50.

Overall, I had a great time just so disappointed in the outcome.

Until next post,

Peace,

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A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton
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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by squirecam on Mon 28 Jun 2010, 13:54

You have allowed multiple qualifiers and stretched the games out to allow more people the opportunity to play. If that's "trying to please everyone", then shouldn't you be doing that???

I still think the low origins turnout is because Origins has sucked for years, and its getting worse. Website, lack of events posting early, lack of dealers, loss of sponsors...all this leads to lower attendance.

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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by Yoper on Mon 28 Jun 2010, 19:06

I also got word for someone that the way in which
things I run the AA events at Origins and GEN CON keeps players away.
Hence one of the other reasons. I believe the comment was, "you try and
please everyone and from what I have been told by others, they don't
like that, hence the reason they don't come anymore." So, he ended with
maybe if you just piss off the chosen few, more will return to what was
once a thriving AA event for all...

The cry of the Single Elimination player, no doubt. Because knocking out half of the participants after the first round is such a great way to grow the event.

You can't please them all, so you need to run the fairest event possible. In the end, it really goes back to doing what you think is right.

Unfortunately, it sounds like it is a matter of each of these unhappy players having an assortment of issues that they are mad about. As such, you won't be able to satisfy all of their concerns.

As for Origins, it has been going down the drain since the third year that I was going to it. The constant changing of the management now having met a downturn in the economy has doomed it. The only positive movement right now at the convention is the CABS Boardgame Room (area). That is the only part of the con that is growing.

Plus, I saw where the con may now move to a new date at the beginning of June. That will kill another chunk of the participants that make the trip as part of a family vacation.

I hope that things go better for you at GCI.
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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by Yoper on Mon 28 Jun 2010, 19:10

Another part of the "trying to please them all" is your scheduling- the specific events, the number of events, and the times for the events.

Pacific 40, Europe 40, and Global 40 are just not going to be feasible as tourney events.

AA50 and AA42 are going to have to be the mainstays with maybe a campaign specific game like Guadalcanal being a third event. Those with your A&A Mini events seem like the ones to stick to.
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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by squirecam on Mon 28 Jun 2010, 22:25

Plus, I saw where the con may now move to a new date at the beginning of June. That will kill another chunk of the participants that make the trip as part of a family vacation.


Where did you see this?

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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by Yoper on Wed 30 Jun 2010, 12:09

People in the Origins Convention Thread over on the Consimworld Forum brought up some rumors. One of the main CABS guys posted this:

Did a little more digging
..

From Marcon forums ...

1. GAMA is a trade organization (gaming
manufacturers) and their members (the people who make games) want the
show (Origins) to be earlier in the summer in order to introduce their
products and get people buying those games at the start of the summer.
Therefore, Origins (the trade show) is moving to be earlier in the
summer. Right now, as of 2012 they are signed for the first weekend in
June, that's too close for Marcon to stay healthy. It would be really
hard for Marcon with Origins closer than 4 weeks in either direction.

So
maybe NOT Memorial Weekend ...
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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by SwampHQ on Thu 01 Jul 2010, 08:33

Guys,

Thanks for the comments...will consider them all. I truly believe the combo of a bad CON and the economy is at fault. Though, I am not placing the blame on someone besides myself, it just has to be the majority reason of why?

The only thing that keep nagging at me is how in the heck the train games, "Puffy Billy" Tournament draws, 150+ every year. Seems they don't have a problem with low numbers at Origins and the economy...?

Peace,

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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by Yoper on Thu 01 Jul 2010, 11:02

They are even more fanatical than the A&A guys!

I know that it is hard to believe, but it's true.

GAMA is going to run Origins right into the ground! They are supposed to be the organization for the game companies but they price many of the small ones right out of coming to the dealer room. Talk about stupid!
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Ideas for increasing turnout at Origins/GenCon A&A events

Post by BushidoBlitz on Tue 06 Jul 2010, 12:45

Hey ya Greg,

First off, thanks again for another year of Origins events. I too was really disappointed in the low turnout, even for the mainstays. I'm really looking forward to GenCon and hope the numbers will be higher there.

I've been rolling around some of the ideas you mentioned for trying to increase turnout to A&A events, particularly in light of the sustained yearly attendance of rail game players (i.e., the Puffy Billy area).

Coming from the P&G business point of view, the first thing I'd recommend is to find out more about what your "target consumers" (Axis & Allies players) want in a A&A con event. Threads on this forum are a start, but I haven't seen a big response. I suggest having a very short feedback form available at your headquarters throughout GenCon with questions like:
1) Top two A&A games I want to play at Origins and/or GenCon in 2011.
2) The A&A event format I prefer to play at a con is:
a) Casual
b) Tournament
3) The top three features that will get me to play more A&A events at cons are (check three):
a) Schedule tournaments of different A&A variants so they do not overlap
b) Clear rules for tournament format, including differences that depend on number of teams signed up, etc. (e.g., might be single-elimination, Swiss, or Round-Robin, depending on turnout), posted in advance so that people don't think some players get "special treatment"
c) Pay one price for unlimited A&A play all weekend
d) Prizes
e) Every game of A&A I play all weekend earns me points toward "4-Star General / Colonel / Captain (i.e. 1st, 2nd, 3rd place)" (or some such), prizes that are awarded to top overall Axis & Allies players that weekend.

Personally, I love to play in tournaments, even if they don't have prizes, but especially if they do--and especially yours because you have such great prizes. I remember the days when I could play in a Europe or Pacific tournament on Th-Fri, and then hit the Revised Mega on Fri-Sat. So, non-overlapping tourney schedules would be a big plus for me.

I think Yope is on the right track to recommend focussing on just a few variants. There is not just not enough interest/convention time to do it all.

BB

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Some thoughts.....

Post by MatildaMike on Wed 07 Jul 2010, 10:53

I have really been thinking about this a lot the last week or so - and some of my conclusions:

1. As others have said, you cannot please everyone - so do not try. You will end up pleasing NO one.

2. A&A is not like the types of games in groups by other (Puffing Billy or whatever it was?). The SHORTEST time any game of A&A would take is 2 hours - and that is the Guad, D-Day and maybe Bulge versions. Everything else will take 3+ hours - so it makes it hard to set things up the same way as a set of games that take an hour or so to play. I don't think we should try.

3. I like the idea of perhaps earning points, badges (medals?) for playing and winning various versions of the games and then being able to win some prizes for that. It would give people an option to play - without playing a tournament - and give them flexibility to play what and when they want. In fact, this year at GenCon, if this option was available, I would do it - as I am not sure I will be playing in an official A&A tournament. This idea has merit.

4. I think we need to focus on just a couple of entries. The problem is there are too many versions that take too long to play. Having 15 games that each take about an hour to play is one thing (Puffing Billy or train games). A&A doesn't work that way and I understand that WotC might want to do everything - but I believe Anniversary and 1942 should be the MAIN focus for tournaments. I think these tournaments should be set up to NOT overlap if at all possible - with 4 days, I think that is actually do-able. Everything else can have tournaments too, if wanted, but I would not worry about scheduling so much. Now, I understand if there is also a MASTERS tournemnt, avoiding overlap for all 3 is a stretch - but I would argue that the masters (1942) and the regular 1942 tournament can run at the same times. No one playing in the masters will want to play in the regular 1942. And this would allow all 1942 players to play in Anniversary if they want. Focus, focus, focus and I think it can be done.

5. Lastly, something that I think we all know but never talk about - I understand that the goal is to expand the fan base for A&A - and I am ALL for that. In fact, I think the A&A for beginners is a GREAT idea and as one of Greg's sidekicks at GenCon, I am looking forward to showing people the game(s) I love. However, that being said, the CORE of the A&A circuit (!) is made up of about 30 people that we all know and talk to. These same people play in and win most of the tournaments that are held. They should up at the SG, Origins and GenCon most years. Over the past few years, I have not seen a ton of 'new' faces - not to say there are not some - but not many. Each yaer, I play many of the same people in the tournments (which I enjoy of course), but there are not often new people. And lets face it, many of these core people are GOOD at these games and will beat new people most times and then it ends up being the same people playing for the prizes. None of this is a problem, per se, but I think it is important to admit that the A&A circuit is pretty closed overall - there are a core of players and that is it. So, anything that is done MUST try to draw ned people in, of course. One way to do that is to NOT have single elimination tournamets for the big games. Make it double elimination, or have the qualifying games (like we do for Anniversary) or have the round robin thing. Anything to give people more than one shot at a game. Nothing would depress me more than to come to GenCon to play in an A&A tourney and after one game, I am done and gone....having been beaten by someone who has played 100s of games of the version. Perhaps have a tournament for beginners and one for vets? Not sure how that would work? Maybe we need to have a ranking system of some kind put into place - but again, no idea on how.

OK, I went on WAY to long - in summary:

1. Focus on the TWO main games - make sure they do not overlap in schedule

2. Make sure the tournamets for the TWO main games are not one and done affairs

3. Provide a way for people to earn prizes without having to commit to a tournament

4. Work on a way to get beginners involved more - the idea for GenCon is a good start.

MM
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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by BushidoBlitz on Wed 07 Jul 2010, 15:11

Here’s my suggestion on how to schedule two (mostly) non-overlapping tournaments for 1942 and Anniversary Edition (AA50):



Overview

AA50 – 5-hr rounds, Th-Fri

1942 – 4-hr rounds, Fri PM-Sat, Finals Sun



Details – AA50

a) 3 rounds on Thursday, 2-3 on Friday, depending on number of teams

b) Time slots: Th, 8-1, 1-6, 6-11; Fri, 8-1, 1-6, 6-11

c) Format: X rounds of Swiss, cut to top Y teams for single elimination, depending on the number of teams, as follows:
# Teams
X
Y
Total Rounds (incl. Finals)
4-6
3
2
4
7-10
3
4
5
11-14
4
4
6
15+
3
8
6

Note: Swiss means that as much as possible each round, teams are paired against teams with the same record; if a bye must be awarded, it is awarded to one of the teams with the lowest record; no team can be awarded more than one bye during Swiss rounds

d) Tiebreakers for cut to single elimination: #1 - Victory City total of all Swiss games played; #2 – IPC total of all Swiss games played.

Details – 1942

a) 1 round on Friday, 4 on Saturday, finals on Sunday

b) Time slots: Fri, 6-10; Sat, 8-12, 12-4, 4-8, 8-12; Sun 9-1

c) Format: X rounds of Swiss, cut to top Y teams for single elimination, depending on the number of teams, as follows:


# Teams
X
Y
Total Rounds (incl. Finals)
4-6
3
2
4
7-10
3
4
5
11-14
4
4
6
15+
3
8
6


Note: Swiss means that as much as possible each round, teams are paired against teams with the same record; if a bye must be awarded, it is awarded to one of the teams with the lowest record; no team can be awarded more than one bye during Swiss rounds



If annual turnout starts being more than 18 teams, you may want to add an extra round (Fri 2-6), doing 4 rounds of Swiss with a cut to the top 8



d) Tiebreakers for cut to single elimination: #1 - Victory City total of all Swiss games played; #2 – IPC total of all Swiss games played



This format guarantees a team at least 3-4 games for the price of their ticket, and one loss does not eliminate them from contention for the cut to single elimination.



Also, the only AA50 players that might conflict with 1942 tourney are those in the finals, and they can either split up or else concede the first round of 1942 Swiss and hope to win out from there.



Just my two cents.



BB

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Wow, nice job guys...

Post by SwampHQ on Wed 07 Jul 2010, 23:00

Guys,

Thanks for putting in the time and effort regarding your comments...now, how to apply it all...Kelly, if you read this, you have to post your e-mail...that is way too funny.

Jeff, I guess you just have to pick it up with the jokes...I guess Saturday was just over the top...

Mike, like your thoughts as well...we will have to discuss this more later...right now, getting yelled at by the tyrant...

Peace,

_________________

Greg Smorey
Axis & Allies EO/GM - ORIGINS/GENCON/SPRING GATHERING
http://www.headlesshorseman2.com/
A good plan today is better than a perfect plan tomorrow. - General George S. Patton
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Re: Origins 2010 Results!

Post by SwampHQ on Thu 08 Jul 2010, 10:26

BushidoBlitz wrote:Here’s my suggestion on how to schedule two (mostly) non-overlapping tournaments for 1942 and Anniversary Edition (AA50):



Overview

AA50 – 5-hr rounds, Th-Fri

1942 – 4-hr rounds, Fri PM-Sat, Finals Sun



Details – AA50

a) 3 rounds on Thursday, 2-3 on Friday, depending on number of teams

b) Time slots: Th, 8-1, 1-6, 6-11; Fri, 8-1, 1-6, 6-11

c) Format: X rounds of Swiss, cut to top Y teams for single elimination, depending on the number of teams, as follows:
# Teams
X
Y
Total Rounds (incl. Finals)
4-6
3
2
4
7-10
3
4
5
11-14
4
4
6
15+
3
8
6

Note: Swiss means that as much as possible each round, teams are paired against teams with the same record; if a bye must be awarded, it is awarded to one of the teams with the lowest record; no team can be awarded more than one bye during Swiss rounds

d) Tiebreakers for cut to single elimination: #1 - Victory City total of all Swiss games played; #2 – IPC total of all Swiss games played.

Details – 1942

a) 1 round on Friday, 4 on Saturday, finals on Sunday

b) Time slots: Fri, 6-10; Sat, 8-12, 12-4, 4-8, 8-12; Sun 9-1

c) Format: X rounds of Swiss, cut to top Y teams for single elimination, depending on the number of teams, as follows:


# Teams
X
Y
Total Rounds (incl. Finals)
4-6
3
2
4
7-10
3
4
5
11-14
4
4
6
15+
3
8
6

Note: Swiss means that as much as possible each round, teams are paired against teams with the same record; if a bye must be awarded, it is awarded to one of the teams with the lowest record; no team can be awarded more than one bye during Swiss rounds



If annual turnout starts being more than 18 teams, you may want to add an extra round (Fri 2-6), doing 4 rounds of Swiss with a cut to the top 8



d) Tiebreakers for cut to single elimination: #1 - Victory City total of all Swiss games played; #2 – IPC total of all Swiss games played



This format guarantees a team at least 3-4 games for the price of their ticket, and one loss does not eliminate them from contention for the cut to single elimination.



Also, the only AA50 players that might conflict with 1942 tourney are those in the finals, and they can either split up or else concede the first round of 1942 Swiss and hope to win out from there.



Just my two cents.



BB

BB, After looking at it more carefully, I really like this:

Thanks for doing the numbers and hard work...I
would also like to look at having a AA overall winner for all games not
part of the 2 tourneys. Kind of like a Axis & Allies Tactics
Award? Goes to the best overall player of all other games offered but
not necessarily the best AA player...Kind of like the jack of all trades
master of none?

This is were we would come up with a point system for All games played
outside of tourney play and would be itself its own little tourney...?

So then, we would have AA50, 1942, and AATA award. Then what to do with
1940 World. Probably just throw that into the AATA...?

_________________

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